Hiring for Good is a podcast exploring the transformative power of leadership and what happens when the right person takes the job. Acumen Executive Search presents the Hiring for Good Podcast. Thank you for tuning in to this episode with Laura Salerno Owens, President of Markowitz Herbold trial law firm.
Podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/288s2ur…
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About Laura Salerno Owens: Laura is the go-to lawyer for clients in high-stakes employment and business disputes because of her strategic approach and proven track record of success. She represents clients in a variety of employment law issues including misappropriation of trade secrets, wage and hour disputes, discrimination charges, sexual harassment allegations, whistleblower claims, and noncompetition/nonsolicitation agreements. She has a broad range of experience litigating claims in state and federal court arising under the Equal Pay Act, Family Medical Leave Act, the Oregon Family Leave Act, and the Americans with Disabilities Act as well as representing clients before the Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) and Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). She also helps clients navigate a variety of business matters, ranging from class actions to breach of contract to breach of fiduciary duty to shareholder and partnership disputes.
Laura’s Linkedin: / laura-salerno-owens-135b1350
Markowitz Herbold Litigation Law Firm: Markowitz Herbold is a litigation law firm that tries high-stakes business disputes for individuals, companies and state, local and regional governments, to juries, judges and arbitrators. We are known by our peers for resolving complicated and challenging cases. The firm is based in Portland, Oregon, and our lawyers practice before state and federal trial courts in the Northwest and across the country.
Tanis Morris: Director of Business Development at Acumen Executive Search
Email: tanis@acumenexecutivesearch.com
Suzanne Hanifin: President at Acumen Executive Search
Email: suzanne@acumenexecutivesearch.com
Acumen Executive Search Website: https://www.acumenexecutivesearch.com/
Acumen Executive Search, Portland, Oregon, is proud to present the Hiring For Good Podcast. We have always been informed and inspired by the leaders, recruiting clients, and executive placement candidates we have the honor of working with…. and now we get a chance to share this wisdom. Follow Acumen Executive Search to be notified of new episodes.
Hiring for Good Transcript
0:00 well hello this is Suzanne Hanafin with Acumen Executive Search and I’m here with my lovely lovely co-host Tanis
0:07 Morris. Hello. And I am so excited today to have a really dear friend of mine
0:12 joining us and I going to read your bio which normally I don’t read bios but
0:19 because Laura Salerno Owens is such a badass I wanted to make sure I got this right
0:25 so Laura is the president of Markowitz Herbold and a shareholder at the Oregon’s largest litigation firm she
0:34 is the chair of the firm’s employee Practice Group and represents employers
0:39 and Executives in hundreds of high-stake employment issues. Laura also practices
0:46 General Business Litigation and is on the member of the firm’s “Bet the Company
0:51 Practice Group” which I’m not quite sure what that is. You don’t want to know. Okay.
0:57 you don’t want to be in a situation where you have to bet your company but if you are that’s when you come to us ah
1:02 there we go now I understand but Laura has been recognized and with all of her
1:08 achievements including the Oregon Commission for Women as a 2021 Women of
1:14 Accomplishment Honory she’s been recognized by the Chamber USA for labor
1:19 and employment and commercial litigation best lawyers in America named a super
1:26 lawyer by Oregon Super Lawyers which is is Rec recognized by law dragon as one
1:33 of the top civil rights and plantiff employment lawyers in the United States
1:40 honored at the U ofo University of Oregon School of Law as an outstanding
1:45 young alum in 2016 selected by the Portland Business Journal as 40 under 40 women of
1:54 influence and their parent company the business journals also recog Laura as
2:00 one of the top 100 legal influencers in the United States did I not mention
2:06 she’s a badass so I am so excited to have you here with us Laura and so thank
2:13 you but we would love to kind of hear your journey and how did you get where you are
2:19 today well first thank you so much for having me as Suzanne mentioned we’ve been friends for years and I’m just so
2:25 excited to see what you’ve done not only with Acmen but with this podcast and I just love love so much this idea of
2:32 reaching out and hearing from people and building community that is uh completely tracks with all my values so I’m really
2:37 excited to be here um to answer your question you know it’s one of those things that very often I’ll get emails
2:45 or phone calls from you know first-year law students can we go out you know tell me about your path tell me about your
2:50 career and I’m always happy to do it but I’m worried they’re going to be a little disappointed in the answer you know
2:55 because I actually not only did I not think my my entire life I’m going to be a lawyer one day but I was pretty sure
3:03 that if I was going to do anything I definitely wouldn’t be a lawyer it seemed boring you know and in full
3:09 disclosure um my mom I was raised by a single mom in Los Angeles with my two sisters you know my mom was a legal
3:15 secretary in a litigation firm and she just thought lawyers were terrible people you know and in fact when I told
3:23 her that I wanted to go to law school she looked at me and she said oh Laura you’re so talented why would you become
3:29 a lawyer you know so it not it was not a linear path um and in fact my first job
3:35 out of college I went to UCLA um so you know I stayed local and my first job out of school is I was an event planner and
3:42 you know sort of my claim to fame I might age myself but I planned a Bat Mitzvah where the Olsen twins were there
3:48 oh my God
3:53 throwing and so you know that’s where I started I wanted to be an event planner but it’s really interesting
4:00 um you know being on the other side of it now practicing law some of the lessons I learned from being an event planner are really applicable to being a
4:06 lawyer you have multiple clients and for any given client whether it’s their event their quinceañera, their Bat Mitzvah,
4:14 their wedding, their conference, it is their most important thing and while on a high level they’re cognizant that
4:20 there are other people who use your services they don’t really care they want their event to go well and likewise
4:25 when you’re working with clients as a lawyer I think that client service piece is huge I think a lot of lawyers forget
4:32 that we’re in the service industry and we are here to make sure our clients get their needs met so even though it may
4:38 not seem like a direct correlation event planner to lawyer um there’s been a lot of overlap so I was and I’m going to
4:46 throw in there it’s not only do clients think of course I I one of them my issue
4:52 is the biggest issue or my party is the best or what have you but there’s also a
4:58 coordination I mean good God I put on a dinner for eight people and I’m planning two weeks
5:05 ahead of time yeah absolutely with litigation or with event planning you
5:11 have to think about what could go wrong day of what’s going to happen that you didn’t plan for and then how are you
5:16 going to react and I think that’s a a huge quality I look for even in leaders
5:21 and other people are you a chicken little are you a person who just runs around with your head cut off and blames
5:27 everyone else or are you a problem solver do you take the issue that came before you say okay wasn’t expecting
5:33 that we’re going to pivot and here’s what we’re going to do and that ability that skill to pivot to keep moving
5:40 forward and to stay positive is so important and especially when you’re doing high stakes litigation you cannot
5:46 anticipate what’s going to happen the thing that you didn’t plan for will happen and you just have to have those
5:51 skills to react absolutely and I kind of interrupted your your story so what what
5:57 made you decide to go to law school what was the formative well it’s funny because this is the whole thing about
6:03 leadership and you know bosses and whatnot but um you know that old saying people don’t leave jobs they leave
6:08 managers oh I had a bad boss and I should thank her every day because it set me on such a great path she was a
6:16 total micromanager I just you know I didn’t like it and so I wanted to do something where I thought to myself you
6:21 know if at the end of the day what’s a job I could do where I could be my own boss if I wanted and um you know it was
6:27 a very intensive thought process I was like well I’m not great at math and science and you know I like to argue so
6:33 may I’ll go to law school you know I mean that was pretty much the like extent of it so then I applied to law schools and it came down to I was
6:40 choosing between the University of Oregon and a law school in California you know where I’m from and then I went
6:45 to visit the campuses and at U of O there was just this environment of people seem
6:52 more relaxed and the other place I went to people seemed so on edge and so comp
6:59 competitive and I thought you know law school is going to be hard enough unto itself I don’t need to be in an
7:05 environment with a bunch of piranhas I want to be in a place that seemed more collaborative and that’s kind of been a
7:10 through line through my career I don’t mind working hard I don’t mind doing the
7:15 high stakes stressful things but I want to do it with a team I don’t want to do it alone and so even in choosing my law
7:23 schools and choosing my community that was kind of the first step and then when I finished law school you know was I
7:28 going to go back to California or stay in Oregon I had just made such a community here in Oregon and that is one
7:34 of things I appreciate the most about working here in Oregon is we are generally very collaborative very
7:40 collegial and I really appreciate that and you went first into employment and
7:47 labor law before really well I guess you’re still labor and employment but
7:53 more traditional than litigation how did you go from make that move well interestingly
8:00 enough and this is a little known fact my very first job that I was hired for was to be a bond lawyer oh wow is a very
8:09 niche area and it just so happened and this is why I tell people when I meet with the law students or whatnot don’t
8:15 think you can plan your life right respond to opportunities as they present themselves so I was hired to be a bond
8:21 lawyer um to help cities and municipalities get bonds to you know build projects and whatnot but within my
8:28 firm I was at one of the largest firms in the country at the time we had a litigation department and the litigators
8:34 in the litigation Department didn’t care for employment law they want to do antitrust they want to do the really
8:39 complicated commercial litigation employment law to them was very nebulous involved people you know yeah and I love
8:47 that and so you know someone walked out my office and said hey if it’s an employment case do you want to handle it and I said yes you know for many years
8:54 at the beginning of my career my default was default to yes it’s interesting because now now that I’m older and I
9:01 have children I have other things I try to default to no but at the beginning of my career I would default to yes and
9:07 that opened so many opportunities for me and so I said sure I’ll take that employment case and then I discovered oh
9:15 this is amazing it is essentially people that’s all it is it’s people it’s
9:21 relationships it’s someone doesn’t feel heard someone feels misunderstood and that I understand you know whether the
9:28 holy owned subsidiary of some big Corporation..little I I can also do that but that
9:33 requires a more of a stretch and then for me what I enjoy about that is when you’re focused on the relationships when
9:40 you’re focused on people you can draw from so many experiences you have in your life and you can get really
9:46 creative and it just it’s such a joy I really I really like it I love that it’s
9:51 so interesting hearing you know um we’ve had the opportunity to meet with a
9:57 number of corporate leaders over the over the year that we’ve been doing this podcast and everybody has these
10:04 interesting pivots and I I find them just fascinating I would never have expected that that’s where you started
10:09 and then I love how you ended there what other formative experiences have you um
10:15 gone through that have really shaped um kind of the the ethos that you bring to
10:20 your practice and and to your role as a leader I think it all comes down to this
10:27 idea that it’s all about relationship anything that you do is about the relationships that you build and so and
10:34 I also think that it’s interesting that being a leader is not about having a
10:39 title it’s about an energy that you bring to something and so you have opportunities throughout your career to
10:46 be a leader and so when I was a brand new lawyer I had no idea what was going on I
10:51 mean they call the practice of law for a reason you have to practice it to understand it and so I wanted
10:57 to operate space where I felt more competent and so I immediately started
11:02 volunteering to coach a a mock trial team at a high school at Jefferson High School right around the corner from here
11:09 and that was such a great formative experience because at a very young age
11:15 very early in my career I was able to you know teach these high school students I you know I didn’t know
11:22 everything about the law I knew a little more than they did you know when it went from like the high schoolers I was like you up here and what it did is it gave
11:28 me a sense of um confidence and competence which then carried over into my everyday work and I made
11:36 relationships with you know judges in town because they would allow us to use their courtrooms to practice and then
11:42 that kind of you know stumbled into another opportunity when I came back from my first maternity leave um
11:49 actually my second maternity leave I felt really underwater I was now a partner you know my firm made me an
11:56 equity partner at my Law Firm when I was on maternity leave and I came back I had two little kids
12:02 under the age of two I was an equity partner and I looked around the room to
12:09 see who else in the legal field was doing what I was trying to do I was still striving right yes I made partner
12:16 but I wanted more I wanted to be a major rainmaker at my firm I wanted to get the best biggest cases and I had these
12:23 two little kids what did that look like and so I looked around the legal field and I didn’t see my peers I had gone to
12:30 law school with you know a lot of them had either stopped practicing or maybe had gone more in house they weren’t on
12:36 the same path I was on and then that led to me calling up Suzanne and Alice Tang
12:42 and other people and we formed this group called LEAP you know leaders and entrepreneurs across professions which
12:49 now is seven years strong you know with 100 yeah I know cuz I look at how old is
12:56 Matteo you know so it’s been seven years that we’ve had LEAP you know 100 member group with all of these Executives and
13:03 women and the whole idea was I am looking for support I’m looking for
13:08 guidance I’m looking for examples I don’t see it immediately in front of me so I created this group you know out of
13:15 whole cloth in some ways but again no one had appointed me a leader I just kind of did it and then I think the most
13:22 formative experience I’ve had as a leader was leading my firm during Covid and
13:28 certainly I did not do that alone we have an entire management team but by that point I had the official title I was firm
13:35 president I became the president of the firm in July of 2019 oh my
13:41 goodness right before of course we signed a 10-year lease for class a commercial space in downtown Portland
13:46 our office is beautiful you should come see it yes I think it’s known as the Marvel Palace it’s the it is it’s
13:52 gorgeous and you know fortunately um you know my managing partner at the time
13:58 this woman Joyce who’s now uh court of appeals judge amazing leader I was able
14:04 to work with her with the other shareholders but one of things that we started doing out of that was
14:10 just we used a very old-fashioned tool it’s called the telephone I don’t know if you’re familiar with it but we
14:15 literally had a phone log and we would divide it up with all of the shareholders of the firm and we would call every single employee in our firm
14:22 just call them and just say how’s it going yeah you know how can we help you what’s happening and I think that led to
14:30 just a base level trust and genuine show of care
14:36 which then transferred into bigger questions of when I’m use air quotes Covid was over questions about what do we do
14:44 about coming back to the office a lot of our competitor colleague firms put in
14:50 mandates you must be in the office three days a week you must be in these days
14:55 and we really sat back and thought hard about it and had a lot of conversations but but we landed in a a spot
15:01 of we have amazing employees we’ve had built a really good level of trust we
15:07 performed really well throughout the pandemic and so we don’t have a mandate we give people a lot of flexibility to
15:14 figure out when they want to do their work where they want to do their work there are guidelines but there are no mandates so that’s just some examples of
15:21 how you know you think like oh okay I’m going to wait until I’m an official leader and then do the things but
15:27 leadership opportunities just up all sorts of place I think it’s the energy that you bring to a situation absolutely
15:34 and you know what I find interesting and and there’s two things that I wanted to
15:39 listening um that I want to bring up one is about balance because balance as you
15:46 were talking about there was no peers striving and being at that same level
15:52 with balancing I mean we’re all women here we’re all moms we’re all wives we’re all you know we’ve got the
15:59 girlfriends and Friends hu..hu.. I mean being a litigator that’s a big responsibility
16:07 how are you balancing and what advice would you give I would say I I um a couple of
16:15 things on that because that’s obviously a question that’s been front and center for me my entire career first is
16:21 um I think balance is not a useful word or if it is I think you have to look at
16:26 it more broadly so so I used to think about balance as being a scale and every
16:33 single day that scale had to be even right it had to be a perfect mix of work
16:38 personal life whatever it was and one piece of advice I got is well think of it more holistically think in the month
16:45 you know maybe you have four days in a row where you’re just working like crazy but then later in the month four days
16:50 where you’re doing a lot of personal stuff and so maybe holistically over the month that’s the balance that was very
16:56 helpful but I think even now the term I prefer is work life integration and that for me in fact
17:02 Suzanne I think you’re very good at that and I think of you as a personal role model when I think about that is it’s
17:09 all in the soup you know and it’s like we’re a whole person and yes I have two
17:15 children and yes I have this practice and I have friends and in theory on occasion I want to exercise and you know
17:22 like all the things and it’s all it’s all fine you know I think we
17:27 have to try as much as possible to get rid of the guilt of if I’m not being
17:33 productive in this moment that I don’t have value and I think that for me has been a bigger shift of decoupling my
17:42 sense of value as a person from my achievements for a very long time I felt like I only had value if I achieved
17:49 something and to tell myself and to honestly believe that if I have a day
17:54 where I wake up and I do 20 things in a day where I have lots of days like that and then I have a day where I wake up
18:00 and I don’t get anything done that day at the end of each of those days my value as a person has not
18:06 changed absolutely well you’re blowing my mind have you have you gotten there I
18:12 mean that’s a hard thing to get to I think I think I I’m sure we all are at
18:18 least what you were saying really resonates with me just as a as a woman and as a as a human being I guess you
18:24 know I I feel like you’re I’m always trying to get all the things on my list done and
18:31 um I don’t know how do you how do you get to the point where you’re
18:36 like copacetic with the you know the ideals you just set forth so it’s been it’s a
18:42 lot of things I think you have to be really mindful about it I think you have to surround yourself with other people who are at various stages of their
18:50 career I think it’s really important to have friends who are younger than you are so you can kind of see you know
18:56 vestiges of yourself and people who are older than you are can give you some perspective you know I think of Jerry
19:01 Vierra you know Jerry gave me great perspective on various things um you
19:06 know Alice of course but I also think honestly a lot of it has been my
19:12 kids I look at my daughter Giana and you want to talk about a badass she is 9 years old and she has
19:20 this fire inside her and she’s had it ever since she was born so for her it’s very easy for me to say if Giana decides
19:27 let’s say to become a lawyer lawyer and is a great lawyer is she now a badass because she was a great lawyer no she
19:34 was born that way she has that thing inside her and so for me if you know
19:40 tomorrow I’m no longer the president of Markowitz Herbold now am I no longer a worthy person am I no longer that person
19:46 who has that fire in her am I no longer this like Goddess Warrior no I yes it’s
19:53 great that I’m the president of Markowitz Herbold but I am who I am and I was that person before Markowitz and I’ll be that
19:59 person after so I think it’s having the perspective of being able to see it in other people whether it’s our friends
20:05 our children because it’s harder to see it in ourselves absolutely and that’s such
20:11 a great segue that we all come with these core values and and it’s how do we
20:16 show up but yet more importantly being a podcast on leadership it’s how do we put
20:22 it out there and how do we manage and Lead what are some of those core values
20:27 that you hold hold dear and how do you operationalize those an absolute value
20:34 not just of me but my firm which is why I think I’ve been so happy there is this abundance mentality it is so important
20:41 this idea that if someone else’s shot star is shining brightly it does not diminish your own in fact it makes your
20:48 star brighter and actually that’s an example I think that has been set not only in word but in action by Dave Markowitz
20:55 so Dave Markowitz is the co-founder of my firm and and he found in my friend with a woman named Barry Herbold total
21:01 Trailblazer and you know both and unfortunately Barry has passed away but
21:08 Dave has an entire program where he coaches other attorneys in the firm on how to get out there how to be rain
21:14 makers how to be better lawyers he gives all these classes on how to make other lawyers you know talented taking
21:20 depositions and you know people will ask him you why are you giving away your secrets and I love his answer he’s like
21:26 because no one can do me as well as me like okay Dave you know but it’s true I
21:33 mean this idea that you know you really want to lift those up around you and something I really like about my firm is
21:39 that we try not to have the Superman model there can only be one Laura Salerno Owens and that’s it no it’s the Avengers
21:46 model right we all have our pow and you know think about like if you’ve ever watched those movies your kids as cheesy
21:51 as they are you get the goosebumps when they’re on the battlefield and they say you know Avengers Unite or whatever it
21:57 is you know comes in and they all have their superpower Black Widow’s over here you know and I love that I love that
22:04 idea of surrounding yourselves with people who no one person has every power
22:09 but everyone has their own superpower and that’s so how do you operationalize that right so we try to have in our
22:16 workplace a place that is the foundation is respect we have a very flat hierarchy
22:22 and so in our client meetings we have something that we call um for our firm it’s the positive litigation
22:29 experience and um our clients laugh at us when we say that they’re like I’m being sued what is positive about that or I’m
22:37 suing someone and we say yes but this is the experience you’re going to have is the positive litigation experience and
22:44 part of that is you’re going to be part of this team where it’s the client and their ideas it’s the lawyers but it’s
22:50 also our paralegals we have some of the most amazing paralegal in the business it’s the production assistants it’s everyone
22:56 and we just want to know what do you think about this what’s your idea what’s your perspective because again if you
23:02 have sort of an Avengers mindset right where everyone has something to contribute and not this like Superman mindset you’re more open to gain those
23:09 ideas and I think that’s why my firm although we are a boutique firm just in Portland Oregon, we are able to compete
23:17 with some of the biggest International firms in the market because we draw on the strengths of everyone in our firm
23:24 yeah I love that and then it’s not just what’s happening in your firm it’s outside in the community and I know
23:32 Markowitz does a lot on community and building up the community again taking
23:40 that abundance mentality how do you push it out to the community well one of the
23:45 things I love about what my firm does in the community is that we basically tell
23:51 empower everyone in our firm you know from shareholders to associates to
23:57 paralegals to staff whomever what is your passion and pursue that so for example one of our paralegal Greg Scott
24:03 was this the president of manzanas you know the the hiking group because that’s a passion that he has and if they ever
24:09 want to have meetings in our offices they too can come to the Marble Palace and you know we create time for
24:15 that and it’s been and Greg has taken some of the lessons that he has learned from climbing and actually done an all
24:21 firm presentations things about like before you do a climb you kind of check in with everyone in the group energetically,
24:28 where are you you know red, yellow, green and then that idea that we can do that with our teams of just checking in
24:35 acknowledging that you’re not going to be green every single day and that’s okay you can have different energy
24:41 levels different things going on we’re just going to check in with each other and know where we are you know so that’s one example on how this community work
24:47 helps inform our day-to-day work or we have another associate April Stone she’s
24:52 really involved with Special Olympics you know it’s a passion she has and that has actually parlayed to her some work
24:58 she’s represented some Olympic athletes you know I mean it’s just it’s really it’s really cool and so again it’s this
25:04 abundance idea of some firms I think have the mentality I don’t want my
25:10 people leaving their desks you know we bill in six-minute increments you know time out the door that’s money gone but
25:17 we very much believe if we invest in our community it is both the most selfless
25:22 and selfish thing you can do because the more you give out the more you get back it’s just true well and you talked about
25:30 this you know I’m gonna kind of jump on the six-minute in Billing increment
25:35 because I think Covid especially the lawyers I know and I’m married to one
25:41 that there is this idea that the secretary or admin or paralegal sits right
25:46 outside of the office you are in and again that paradigm of the
25:52 integration is I I think law firms have changed probably more than anybody else
26:00 of understanding that you don’t have to be at your your desk is that a true
26:05 statement absolutely Covid for me was well I have just a general saying in
26:11 life that anything that happens presents a gift or an opportunity anything and Covid certainly was that there
26:19 were gifts and there were opportunities and there were all sorts of things but I think one of the greatest um opportunities from it is in the legal
26:27 field in particular a common refrain is well we’ve can’t do it this way we’ve
26:32 always done it that way so for example doing a filing of course you have to be in the office we have a filing you know
26:39 but during Covid we couldn’t we all had to do it remotely and it just it shattered
26:44 it you know and so for me it became kind of a a a signal anytime someone says well you can’t do it that way because we
26:50 never have Covid gave a real testing ground well let’s test that is that true
26:57 and so so I just think it’s been a huge opportunity to give people more autonomy because I think that is the number one
27:04 key of satisfaction at work they’ve done a lot of studies and autonomy is number one and so if our you know our Legal
27:10 Assistant for example our policy is they need to be in the office physically four days in the month but they can choose
27:17 what four days those are so if they want to do four days one week and then work remotely the rest of the month fine you
27:22 know one each day you know that will change if we’re in trial or deposition but as a general matter they have the
27:27 autonomy to decide which days they’re going to come in because they’re professionals and we trust them and I
27:34 think that giving someone trust you get the trust back that’s it sounds like such an amazing culture you know it’s
27:40 it’s really interesting and now as the president of the organization you know I guess I’ll back
27:46 it up and say with executive Search we firmly believe that the only way a
27:52 candidate is going to be successful when when they join a new team is if they in
27:59 addition to possessing the the skill set and um experience necessary for the job
28:05 they also align culturally with the organization so when you’re looking for
28:11 new team members when you’re adding when you’re building teams what kind of qualities are you looking for that um is
28:19 going to you know probably indicate that they’ll be a good a good fit and a successful match
28:24 for the organization and then what about like just for you personally who when you’re looking for people to join your
28:30 immediate team what are the skill sets you’re looking for it’s a great question um because I think anyone who is a
28:36 business owner knows that hiring is one of the most difficult things to do um we’ve all had that experience where
28:42 someone gave the most amazing interview and then they get in there and you’ve had other people who maybe gave okay
28:49 interviews and then they are total rock stars so it’s it’s hard to know so with that caveat I’m a lawyer I put my
28:54 caveats out there um I would say it’s a couple things so obviously there
29:00 are certain core things that people have to have to work at our firm you have to be incredibly intelligent you have to
29:07 work hard you know all those things and that’s kind of a given but I would say to the extent that you can sus it out it
29:13 is that abundance mentality is this the type of person who is going to come in
29:19 and think that everyone within the team they’re competing with and it’s it’s it’s such a fine line because as
29:25 litigators we are competitive don’t get me wrong I love to win but I want to win
29:31 as a group and so it’s it’s hard to assess but what we’re looking for is
29:36 somebody who wants to win but wants to win not by demeaning the people around them but by making everyone around them
29:43 better who has an abundance mentality not a scarcity mentality so I would say that’s kind of the first key of just
29:49 generally when we’re hiring people we look for someone who also to that end is
29:55 comfortable the fact that we are sort of a flat organization on our hiring committee we have paralegal making screening decisions as to associate
30:02 attorneys and if we have some associate who’s like this paralegal is going to make a decision about me you’re not in the
30:08 right place you know and then for my immediate team um it has to be someone
30:13 who has a great sense of humor because when you do employment law it can be a
30:20 little um or just even just the high stakes litigation that we do you must need a little Gallows humor you know
30:26 what I mean like you’re going to take your bumps it’s a hard job and if you’re not the type of person who can just
30:32 laugh at yourself once in a while I think it’s just going to be a lot harder so that’s why I look forward for people on my media team people who
30:38 have a good sense of humor who are introspective and kind of understand that sometimes you just have to laugh at
30:44 the situation oh humor and laughter you have kids the only way to
30:50 survive children but looking back I mean here you are you’re kind of at the pinnacle
30:57 of your career you’re so successful you’re very well known you’re amazing
31:02 looking back what advice would you give your 20-year-old self or even high
31:08 school year old self I think it’s to get to the point
31:15 faster that we were talking about earlier of really understanding your value knowing that your value is not
31:22 contingent on your achievements and that assuredness that tranquility
31:28 would have saved me so much heartache you know and in some ways people might say and even at times I’ve said to
31:34 myself but that’s what propelled me right you know because I was always working really hard and you know being competitive and you know trying to
31:40 outwork the person next to me and you can still do all of that but I think it’s a question of look at what’s
31:48 motivating you and there’s always within us two different types of energy there’s energy that fills you up you know sage
31:54 energy it’s like when you’re being Innovative when you’re in flow like we all know that feeling and then there’s energy that drains you it’s the anxiety
32:01 it’s the fear it’s like oh my God what are they going to say oh I’m going to miss this deadline what if they don’t like me duh duh duh and while at the end of the
32:07 day it might appear on the outside that the same achievement has occurred what does your body feel like
32:14 what did it cost you to achieve that and I wish I had known at a younger age to
32:20 tap more into that sage energy that uh fulfilling self-renewing
32:26 beautiful light that fills your cup versus that energy that sucks you dry
32:32 and yeah you get there but you’re kind of a shell of a person once you do you’re so exhausted you’re so spent so I
32:38 would say that would be the biggest difference is just at a younger age understanding more thoroughly that who
32:46 you are and your value is not contingent on what you achieve I love that because
32:51 again we hear today a lot about impostor syndrome we hear today about you know
32:58 again we we question not just our judgment and and our decisions but we
33:05 also question who we are and I think that’s such an important lesson to
33:11 remember you are who you are and to embrace it and not try to change it you
33:17 know it’s a really good trick to help with that is to find a photo of yourself under the age of 10 and I think we can
33:24 all picture it there’s one for me it’s a photo when I’m about May seven I have very sunburnt nose I was like a total
33:29 towhead blonde and I was like like like little gremlin smile and in that photo I’m
33:35 like yep that’s me in that picture kind of my essential self is shining through
33:42 and I think all of us can if if we sit here can think of that photo or that image that thing of our essential self
33:48 and it might sound cheesy but sometimes just pulling it out and looking at that photo if you know I mean the type of
33:54 work I do is extremely stressful I have people other side who want to cast aspersions about me who threaten to sue
34:01 me in addition to my clients I mean it is a constant assault and to be able to
34:06 just reenter and know who you are and what your value is I think is incredibly
34:13 powerful and then it allows you to be generous with other people and then you build this team and then when you have a
34:20 team full of people who are not operating out of fear who are not operating out of impostorism out of
34:27 trying to cut each other down but all want to make each other stronger then you get to be a team like
34:32 Markowitz Herbold and it’s extremely formidable wow honestly I just thought of another question when you were saying
34:38 that because I was so moved um what are other characteristics to you of a great
34:45 leader it’s humility is not quite the right word it’s the
34:51 um that fine balance between allowing you to make a mistake but holding you
34:57 accountable for it it’s a hard balance but it’s a good one if people on your team feel they cannot
35:03 make mistakes that’s fatal it’s absolutely fatal but of course on the other hand you don’t want to have people
35:08 making mistakes left and right because you know we have to get the job done so a great leader I think is someone who
35:14 can turn things into teaching opportunities and give you Grace and again not sound like a total sycophant
35:21 but Dave Markowitz is really good at that you’ll miss something in litigation you’ll make a mistake and he never
35:27 berates you and I’ve worked for other people in the past who you make a mistake and they will say things to you like how could you make this mistake
35:34 this is this is embarrassing this is horrible we’re going to lose the client you’re going to be sued for malpractice I mean they just lay into you you know
35:41 and that is so unproductive whereas he will say
35:46 okay well we’re gonna fix this and then it’s a learning opportunity so I think that’s another
35:52 great quality and I think also a great quality of um the leaders that I admire
35:58 is um authenticity I I don’t do well with
36:03 these people who are perfect people I I can’t I don’t have time for it we all know it’s bs anyway she’s looking at me
36:09 and I am perfect I just thought I you are perfect but I think authenticity is
36:16 really important well thanks I’m sorry I’m no that’s that’s perfect because you
36:22 know this yeah and this podcast is called hiring for good so really what
36:27 does hiring for good mean to you to me it means hiring sort for the the right
36:34 reasons because you’re doing something for the right reason right so for example in my firm we do litigation
36:42 and some people if they’re being really cynical could say litigation all about lawyers trying to make money off their
36:48 clients you know they’re trying to milk the file they’re they’re just about making money they don’t care about their clients that is the wrong reason and so
36:57 if if you were hiring people to further that purpose I’d be hiring for bad right hiring for good is at our firm we’re
37:03 trying to solve problems and we’re trying to solve problems in an efficient way in the most low-cost way and we have
37:11 some incredible clients you know we do a lot of work for the state of Oregon and I have so much pride for that I love representing our state I love
37:17 representing our governor and that to me is like the hiring for good right like
37:22 it’s this higher purpose why are we doing this work what is it about and then finding people who are like-minded
37:28 I love that I do too thank you it was such a pleasure my gosh what a great interview oh I know and I was right
37:35 badass yes right there Laura thank you so much again Laura Salerno Owens Markowitz
37:42 Herbold I cannot thank you enough well thank you both it was really great to be here awesome great thanks for joining us
37:50 today at hiring for good if you were inspired by our conversation don’t forget to like follow and subscribe
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38:02 at www.hiring forgood.net or our company website Acumen Executive Search
38:09 thanks so much and don’t forget to join us next time for another in-depth conversation about transformational leadership until then have fun.